The Monitoring Tool Market: How to Launch Successful Software

[00:00:00] Chapter 1: Introduction and Guest Introduction

Mirko Novakovic: Hello, everybody. My name is Mirko Novakovic. I am co-founder and CEO of Dash0. And welcome to Code RED code because we are talking about code and RED stands for requests, errors and Duration the Core Metrics of Observability. On this podcast, you will hear from leaders around our industry about what they are building, what's next in observability, and what you can do today to avoid your next outage. Today my guest is Ben Nye. Ben is the managing partner at Venture Guides and the leading investor in infrastructure software. He was an early investor and operator in the observability and APM space. He previously led cloud company Turbonomic, which IBM acquired for $2 billion in 2021. That's how we first met and I'm excited to have him on today. Ben, welcome to Code RED.

Ben Nye: Great to see you, Mirko.

Mirko Novakovic: Yeah, great to see you.

Ben Nye: Always a pleasure.

[00:00:55] Chapter 2: Venture Guides & Investment Strategy

Mirko Novakovic: And good to see in the background venture guys. That's your new business. Let us know a little bit about it.

Ben Nye: Well, we're a fund of about $216 million. We're doing early stage investing. So pre -seed, series A and fundamentally, this is an area that we just love helping founders build their businesses. So we're very active. We have a premise that says, know what you own, know why you own it and know how to help. And that's having a prepared mind, a domain focus, and an active orientation to be helpful. I think so far if you sort of said what is what has been the most useful? It's really about the go to market expertise that we bring to bear 70% of our portfolio companies have chosen to co-locate with us and build their go to markets in our firm on the same floor of our building together with us. And so far, the average growth rate across our portfolio is just under 300%. So it's working.

Mirko Novakovic: That sounds really awesome. And you are in Boston, right?

Ben Nye: Yes. Sorry. We're in Boston, right by the TD garden. So a lot of activity in the center of Boston with the world champion Celtics having just landed that title.

[00:02:10] Chapter 3: Entering the Observability Space

Mirko Novakovic: Yeah. Yeah. Congrats. And Thank you. I mean, I know you as a great sales leader and CEO and let's start with the story of entering the observability monitoring space. I think your first stop was precise, right? I read you were the CEO and CFO, and I. I remember precise pretty well. They were, I would say, together with Wiley, probably one of the first real APM players in the market.

Ben Nye: Yeah. That's exactly right. We were the first distributed systems APM. What happened we would have figured out is Israeli team had figured out a really interesting way to be able to look at transactions running through particularly in Oracle database, first without tapping the API and going through the shared global area, the memory of Oracle, but could therefore see 100% of the transactions. And then what we did is we built that out to the front all the way to the app server, web server, and then back into storage. And that together became the first distributed systems APM. Wiley came along a little bit later with Lou Cerny and Joty and those guys. But it was a time when, when people were still saying, you know, do you know what a business application is? And today, you know, we live our life on applications. But at the time, this was really critical to how a business would perform. Was the adoption the rate of adoption of their applications that ran their business?

Mirko Novakovic: Yeah, absolutely. But also at that time, because you say Oracle, it was a little bit easier in terms of the number of components, right? There were basically two databases, DB2 and Oracle. And you had probably 1 or 2 application servers, different WebLogic, WebSphere in front of it. So it was more or less a very easy architecture. But you're right. I mean, those were the first products that gave you real insights in what your application was actually doing.

[00:04:07] Chapter 4: Evolution of APM Technologies

Ben Nye: That's right. And actually, just to finish some of the craziness you had, actually SQL Server was new on the scene then as well. And you had multiple flavors of storage, multiple flavors of compute. Sun Microsystems, an old name, was still around. And so the joke we used to say is that the more tears you had, the more tears you would have, or you would cry because you couldn't possibly manage the complexity and associated with the performance of the application. And so the big thing that we figured out at that time was that by sampling across each of those tears, we could use the timestamp in the IP header to correlate what logically and infer what logically was calling what down through the invocation chain of an application transaction.

Mirko Novakovic: Yeah, it's still today. It's still very similar. Right. The transactions haven't really changed. It's now more distributed. Right. You have distributed tracing these days with more microservices. But at the end it's the core of the technology is still pretty much the same. It's standardized now with OpenTelemetry. But I would say since when was it late 90s, beginning of 2000. That technology has evolved, but it hasn't been really disrupted. Right? It became better and better over time.

Ben Nye: So the second generation was actually Dynatrace, which we were the investor behind. And what Bern Greifrenator did that was so genuinely impressive to me was he figured out how to fundamentally deploy a single agent with some little sort of what he calls nano agents, a slight cheap, but it gave you the definitive instead of calling it invocation chain, and instead of using timestamps, he could tell you a definitive what he called pure path. And that's really what gave rise to the strength in the intellectual property behind Dynatrace. And we were the first investors in Dynatrace. We actually helped them write the Delaware incorporation papers and set it up in the United States. And, you know, today it's just continued on a tear of serving the really high end clients. And probably, you know, only the top applications in those clients, but being able to evaluate the performance of those top apps. And, you know, we used to always say, you know, you can't manage what you can't see. And so he was able to give us that, that pure path. And I think tracing, you know, above logs and above metrics is probably the most important to your point about OpenTelemetry. I think OpenTelemetry is going to democratize a lot of APMs. I think you're correct in that but I still think there'll be a real premium for tracing over the other formats.

[00:06:59] Chapter 5: Building and Scaling Dynatrace in the US

Mirko Novakovic: And you're totally right. I think PurePass is one of the milestones in this space. What? Bernd and the team invented in Linz, Austria. Right. Not only did they have the end to end view of that PurePass, they only basically were able to record every transaction right with this one agent approach. Yeah, but coming back, I think at that time you were at Maine Capital, right. You built after I think Precise got sold to Veritas, Symantec. Right. And then you joined Maine Capital and you did a lot of the infrastructure and APM investments there, including Dynatrace and Dynatrace got sold to Compuware, I think first, and then a PE took over and IPO them. And it's still a very successful, I would say around ten, ten, $15 billion market cap company. One of the big leading players in the APM space.

Ben Nye: Yeah, it's a remarkable company. And again, kudos to Bern to understanding. You know what? We were just talking about the importance of that end to end pure path.

Mirko Novakovic: Yeah. It's also interesting for a lot of the European companies. I mean, I founded my company in Germany. Bern founded it in Linz. But at one point you have to come to the US, right? And I think you helped with that, right? I remember that the office of Dynatrace was in Boston. The headquarter and also John von Sicklen, I think he came on board as the CEO. And I'm not sure if you were involved in that, but at least I know that there was a big change in basically moving the company from being a European, Austrian based company into a global company with, with, with basically a headquarter in the US.

Ben Nye: Yeah, that's a big piece of what we do. So we as I mentioned, we wrote the Delaware Corporation papers hired up the management team, Actually, the associate Moe Gerard who I know, you know Moe was my associate at Maine Capital. And as Bergen got to know him through the diligence period, he came to me and he said, look, would you mind if we hired or at least offered to hire Moe? He knows this space so well because Moe had been at Precise. So this is sort of the East Coast version of the Lew Cerny and Jokie Bissell connection, but anyway, so Moe became the first North American employee. We hired all of the rest of the folks you mentioned, John, or Eric Fisher and Eric Horsman and all the rest of that team. And to this day, they're still headquartered right in Waltham, Mass.

[00:09:41] Chapter 6: The Importance of the US Market

Mirko Novakovic: And that's partly what you do with Venture Guides, right? You help people basically build that team and also build a go to market in the US especially. Right?

Ben Nye: Yes. Wherever you're starting point is around the world, if you're addressing a significant problem. And by that, I just one thing I don't like is incremental software. I really enjoy when you're taking on a problem identified in computer science that customers are struggling with. That's a significant improvement. And then say, now can we commercialize that? And the answer is that's where we'd like to help. And we have a very I think, important capability around what we call capital efficient selling. And that means it's a lot of systematic trial and experimentation and iteration, but it allows us to to build companies or help build companies on the go to market side without draining the balance sheet of the company. As a result, the founders keep more of the company and get a much better return on their time as well.

Mirko Novakovic: And I mean, you know the space pretty well. And you have been a CEO of Turbonomic, which we will talk a little bit later, but you know the market pretty well. How important is the US market.

Ben Nye: So I think it's north of north of 50% of the global market. But it also I think those numbers might belie even more strategic import, which is some of the most sophisticated consumers of technology in the enterprise. You know, let's take the banks in particular, banks and financial segment are really the early adopters. So look, it's definitely a worldwide market and it's a fantastic market. You know, I remember selling ANZ Bank and Australia and New Zealand, but I do think that building enough critical mass in a customs union the size of the United States market is, is certainly worthwhile. And the money center banks is in particular are critical adopters. If you want to build market share and basically build a platform.

[00:11:47] Chapter 7: Turbonomic's Journey & Success

Mirko Novakovic: Yeah, I totally agree. I can say from my own experience with Instana that the US is the most critical market for Were not only from a revenue perspective, also from building the right product. Right, because you get the feedback, you get early adopters, you get a totally different scale, right? Every company in the US is normally ten x of the similar company here in Germany or Europe. Just if you look at companies like Walmart or I don't know, we had a company called Dick's Sporting Goods, which is huge, right? But there's nothing comparable in Europe. And they are a really big user of APM and observability for their shop and everything. Yeah, I can totally agree that this is the market. You have to be successful or you are not successful as a company.

Ben Nye: There's one other piece as well, Mirko, that I would compliment you on with Instana, which the acquirers are frequently also US based multinationals. Right. So IBM, who bought Instana also bought turbo was you know, the fact that they were based here, I think they wanted to see customers that you had properly and well sold to in the market, so that they weren't just trying to make sense of a, of a different compliance regime overseas or something else that would be different.

Mirko Novakovic: Yeah. And let's talk about Turbo, because I really love that tool. And I love the space. And I don't think there's really another new turbo. I'm not aware of it. But essentially I think you started on, on the VMware side. Right. But maybe you, give us a little bit of history of turbo and why you have become so successful to what we just said in the intro, a $2 billion sale to IBM, which is, together with Instana, now a very successful product inside of IBM.

Ben Nye: Yeah. And just for your audience, the way the two work together, Turbonomic was making application resourcing decisions. But to prove they were right, they had to show that the performance impact was not a negative effect or you would never have taken a savings action. And so tie those two together is really like, you know, what I used to say is peanut butter and jelly in the United States, it's just a great sandwich. But the math behind it was also fascinating. There's a long standing problem, 50 years in the making called the share of computer science problem, called the sharing problem, where I have multiple different applications and they all need resources. And how can I possibly figure out how much resources to allocate to a given application? And heretofore prior to turbo, everybody was trying to assign resources manually, which is kind of obscene if you think about it. But that's the state of the art. And so when you looked at the adoption of virtualization and the ability to now finally migrate workloads across physical compute and leverage the virtual compute, now you've created a new capability to actually make the allocation decisions dynamic. And so what Turbonomic did is they harnessed the power of if an application demand was going up, then they would get more budget and could preempt resource adoption all the way down through what they called the supply chain, the compute, the virtual as well as physical, but the compute, memory, networking and storage.

Ben Nye: And similarly, if another application in a shared environment had demand going down, they would lose budget, but they would seed resources to the ones where it was going up. And finally, you had leverage economic market power to determine how to allocate resources dynamically. And that turned out to be a really valuable thing to, to customers who if you look at a typical data center, I'll use CPU is probably the most egregious, but it's typical average CPU utilization in a data center is about 6%. So really, really low. And these are expensive operating assets as well as capital assets. And so the opportunity to improve performance, but at the same time also save you all that money allowed you to, to to really solve one of the industry's long plaguing problems. And that's what was so exciting about it. So I would I would start with great people. And they never gave up, even when it was really hard. And the team was phenomenal. But the second thing is with a wonderfully big idea and, and solving those two things together was really what, what led to the success of turtle?

[00:16:37] Chapter 8: The Transition to Cloud and Kubernetes

Mirko Novakovic: Yeah. And as I, as I know you started with the data centers and VMware virtualization layer, but then also cloud and Kubernetes came in. And I think you adopted that too. Was that actually an acceleration of the business or was it more a distraction or do customers need the same tools also in the cloud, or is the cloud already managed and I don't have that resource problem anymore?

Ben Nye: Yeah customers absolutely need this everywhere. One of the beautiful things is as long as you had at least two tears the same thing we said earlier about precise, the more tears you have, the more tears you'll cry. The more tears you could optimize all the time. And so the real cost was to try and get rid of stranded resources closed clusters with huge reserves, cloud costs that were wasteful and charged on a variable basis. And then just think about if you think about what the industry cares the most about, I would argue performance first, complexity and security. Those are your big three. Cost savings are a byproduct of the first two. If you do those well you'll always have some cost savings. But and it is used with procurement and how to justify your purchase. But again put them last. The most important thing is to focus on what the customer's daily pain is, because it's not about themselves, it's about serving their customers. The application is the business today. And and again, if you can't see it, you can't manage it. But you your your principal criminals are stranded resources too much complexity and or security and compliance breaches. And if you think about, you know, as you move up the stack and you move into a Kubernetes framework with microservices, the propensity for complexity to rule and cost you a whole nother regime or a whole nother platform worth of lost productivity is is too much. And so that's where, you know, you need some solutions that can see through that so you can manage them better.

Mirko Novakovic: Yeah, absolutely. But there's one thing I really remember. Well, when I was at IBM and, and with Instana and we acquired turbo and we built this pitch, how we work together. And I was part of this pitch creating. And we created a pitch where we basically said, Turbonomic can help you reduce the cost. And also remember you came in on the call and with your nice East Coast charm, you said directly, oh, this is this is stupid, right? It's not about cost at all. And I remember this really correctly. I think you were 100% right. Right. And you just explained. But I want to emphasize it again. You said it's about performance. Customers care about performance. They do not care so much about cost. Right. That was interesting because you would argue normally that people care more about cost. But if you think about it, those applications are so critical, right, for their business that they actually care. How performant are there? Right? Are they secure and cost? Yes. If I optimize my application, I will reduce it. But it's not their core pain. Right.

[00:19:46] Chapter 9: The Value of Performance Over Cost

Ben Nye: Well, you just said that perfectly. You know the way to describe. And Arvind Krishna got this and Rob Thomas got this. At IBM, the whole board of IBM actually in a joking way, but accused Arvind of underselling the power of what Turbonomic could do. It literally solved this problem, right? When you get that loading wheel of death. Right. Oftentimes there's either a code problem Instana would solve or there was a resource constraint that basically was starving the application. And if you can take that away, that's worth all the cost savings in the world. The app is the business today. And we just have to always remember that you talk to customers, you know, they care about the performance of the app far more than they care about the cost savings opportunity, by the way. They care about security and managing complexity. Those are the big three. Again, the ROI will be there if you run the apps. Well but the converse is not true. You know, a simple example is if I wanted to save a huge ROI and didn't care about performance. Just unplug the app. Guess what? Or the whole data center, right? And so having it in the right order really makes an enormous amount of difference. And the customers will tell you that, as you know.

Mirko Novakovic: Absolutely. This is one of the things I'm actually telling my guys here at Dash0 also all the time. I always remember what Ben said is that people care more about performance than cost, right? And this is something you really, really have to tell yourself all the time that those applications are so critical, right. As you said. Or you would turn them off then there are no cost, right? And that's a very important message, I think, for everyone out there who's using observability. It's not so much about cost reduction. It is really about making sure that your application runs stable, right? Reduce complexity and make sure it's really performant that your users can use it and love it.

Ben Nye: And what you do if you're if you're an enterprise rep, you don't disregard the cost savings, but you have to put them at the end of the process, because the reason they're buying APM is because they're trying to solve this, this problem of performance. Not they're not trying to do this to save money. And I think once you get that order, right. The worry I always had in the cost savings is so easy to position the cost savings as, oh, this is a slam dunk, but we're not selling cash registers. We're not selling calculators. We're selling, honestly, very elegant intellectual property that will help you deliver the performance and the security and compliance of your applications. Better than you can do as a human individual contributor. And, and then, by the way, there'll be great savings.

Mirko Novakovic: And let me ask you a go to market question here, because I can just see how, especially with turbo, not only APM, that reps would love to go out and tell customers, hey, I can save you money, right? That's kind of very easy to pitch. Very easy to communicate. And it sounds so kind of natural to do. Right. How did you make sure that that doesn't happen?

Ben Nye: Repetition. Repetition. You know, inspection. This is what I mean. There's no shortcut, right? And you've seen this yourself in selling management products, which usually will have a strong ROI if they're, if they're good solutions. But you just have to get the order right. If you jump straight to the punchline of, I'll save you, you know, $50 million a it might not be credible, but B how you do it matters. And every every vendor out there, every vendor has their own ROI and ROI matters, but it matters in the right order. Once they understand, once your champion is fully informed and understands how or why you're able to achieve what you're able to achieve as opposed to, you know, making some bold claim that they're going to be stuck with delivery after the fact.

Mirko Novakovic: So put the value first. Basically.

Ben Nye: Always. Exactly. Well said.

Mirko Novakovic: Yeah, I think that's something that is really important in our business. Right. Also for other CEOs is how learn how to sell. Right and how to make sure I think this repeating it's by the way, a very American thing, a German. I always resist to repeat myself because we think it's useless, right? But I learned that when I moved to the US and also had my CEO Frank, telling me, you have to repeat it all the time, right? Every time we meet, repeat the core message. And I think that's very important, right? Otherwise you don't get it into the heads of everyone. That it's not about cost, it's about performance and what the mission is and how we solve problems, what the value is for the customer. I think that's repeating is such a strong methodology. And sometimes you forget about it. Right?

[00:24:44] Chapter 10: Effective Go-To-Market Strategies

Ben Nye: I spent five years working in the as a political appointee in the US Treasury Department. And when you're trying to emphasize a new policy direction, we used to say, you'd have to say something 40 times on the 41st time. Someone that's been in the room all 40 times goes, oh, what did he just say? Oh that's interesting. You know, and it just, it is true that you may think that you were clear the first time, but you rarely are. And through that repetition, you'll also get more feedback from the customers and more understanding of ways to make it more digestible.

Mirko Novakovic: So now you have venture guides, $216 million fund. You said early stage. Yeah, mostly infrastructure software. So what are the trends you are seeing? What are the companies you're investing, especially in this industry?

[00:25:33] Chapter 11: Venture Guides' Approach to Investment and Guidance

Ben Nye: I think we continue to see the themes around migration to cloud. It's just continues to accelerate. It's really fun. I think we're seeing many, many, many more nuances around how I re-architect or rethink my development environment. So shift left is obviously people talk about, but also shift down as I think about the platform team offloading some of the developers particularly on security vulnerabilities, things like that. We're seeing massive, massive proliferation of attack surface area and and exposures there. So definitely been been watching the trends there. And then I would just say on on something near, near and dear to yours in my heart is making sure that those apps are running and running well, managing the performance actively, managing the complexity actively, and tREDing off some of those compliance requirements in that process is, it is going to be a continued area of intense focus for for new ventures. We've been spending a lot of time in that space and always will. Just because we think it's so central to the value, the fundamental value of why I bought a server or a cloud instance in the first place. So but more platforms, more complexity means you're going to need more management products to help address that.

Mirko Novakovic: You say shift left, which is obvious, right? We are talking about that for probably a decade now, that more and more things are pushed more towards the developer, right towards a kind of the beginning of the process because it makes sense. A lot of ways also makes you faster if you integrate it into the process. But now you said the shift down to a platform team. We see this also, right? We basically also say my team. If you talk about developers these days, I think there are different types of developers, right? You have application developers, but now you have also the platform engineers, developers who are building a platform which basically provides base services to the application developers. Are you seeing that trend also? And is that something where you see different tools evolving?

Ben Nye: Oh yeah. So. So what? The way it works, the shift left was an empowerment of the developer. Then be careful what you ask for, because then they got all of the responsibility that came along with it. So think about trying to manage vulnerabilities in your code or in your environment or in your cloud instance. And you just you need help. So there are some examples. You know, I think if you look at the role of platform teams more generally by putting some prescription but also automation in place, you can obviate the exposure that comes with new platforms, but also that, frankly, is left in a shift left world only is left to the developers to solve. And when I say developers, please include SREs and in any of the DevOps team. But I think that there has to be a solve for that. Then let's take one more thing that you mentioned earlier and add to it. You know the role of OpenTelemetry. Let's remember that today, APM is probably addressing 10% of the most critical applications in a bank, if you will. And as we cover more and more applications and more and more market share of those applications within the bank these problems will continue to grow. And so there has to be an institutional approach beyond just the rules based approach, but an institutional approach, which is where the platform team plays a role as well.

Mirko Novakovic: Yeah, absolutely. And especially what I see as a very big strength of OpenTelemetry is what they call the semantic convention, which is basically standardizing the tagging on all the signals on logs, traces, metrics, because especially in large organizations, it is used to be that every team was inventing their own taxonomy or semantic for the tags. Right. You had host name, host underscore name whatever. But there was no really standardization. I remember when I started my career, I came into an insurance company, and one of my tasks was to look at the logs, and I tried to standardize the header idea at the beginning. And my idea was to standardize the log IDs between the different divisions. And I couldn't right. I spent a year trying to standardize it, but it was so hard to do that. And so having a kind of institutionalized standard like OpenTelemetry is really a thing that will help a lot getting from the and I agree, probably it's only 10% that is monitored today, but get to a larger scale that only works with the standardization.

[00:33:34] Chapter 12: Industry Trends and Future Outlook

Ben Nye: Yeah, you can totally see where the future is. And now we just got to get from here to there. It's still the Wild West, but I think some of these standards will help. And also some of the institutionalization of the standards within the customer's environment will also help.

Mirko Novakovic: Yeah, it takes time, right? The standard is now five years old. It's just becoming kind of stable. And it's also hard if a lot of vendors and parties are doing a standard, it's slowing things down, but it also becomes basically a established standard in this developer community, I would say. So we are super bullish about OpenTelemetry and think in the next five years, it will definitely be the standard for application infrastructure monitoring, logging, tracing. And also now adding profiling and real user monitoring, which is then an end to end view of the whole application infrastructure landscape.

Ben Nye: Well said. We agree.

Mirko Novakovic: And so just because I'm very interested, I've worked with many VCs, but you said people are coming into your office. I haven't heard that, to be honest. They work with you and, and you have people dedicated to them that helped them build especially go to market functions.

Ben Nye: Yeah. So I used to run Maine Capital Ventures for a bunch of years and it's a great firm, but I'd just like just like technology evolves, you know, the approach can also evolve. And so our approach here, instead of having a solo practitioner approach where it's one partner, one deal, we have a different approach. Everything we do here is team based. So at Venture Guides there will be a partner that serves on the board, but you'll have access to everybody in the team. And that engagement model is true of team based investing as well as our team based what we call guiding. And our fundamental belief is that the industry has left behind the guiding part of the equation which is so critical to building these companies. I'm not sure about the internal story of Instana, but I can tell you definitively I've never had a company that wasn't a series of s curves, right? They don't just they're not just born great, they're all grown and they're worked on and so forth. And when you get into the flat of an S curve or a decline, it's our job to make sure that we get it out of that and, and trending up with the management teams, because as a company that's operating in the red, you will bleed out your balance sheet over time. So our job is to continue that growth growth curve. So we believe that you will always get to a better answer and obviate, you know, blind spots or are bringing more good ideas to bear if you have the team relevant and helpful. And so that's how we've approached the market.

Mirko Novakovic: Yeah, we definitely had a lot of ups and downs at Instana throughout the journey, and it feels like a roller coaster ride, right? Building a company. But I have to say, having people who have done it before, like your team, I know that Moe, for example, we talked about him. He's also adventure guides. People have worked in similar companies who have gone through these ups and downs. They can be really coaches, right, that you can talk to and that can help you through these times. Right. Because I especially I don't know, how's your experience, but I was talking to another CEO recently. I said, sometimes you feel really alone as a CEO, right? Though you though, you have all the management team around you. But when sometimes when you have to make really hard calls, I at least I felt super alone, right? And I was happy if I had somebody outside, like kind of like a coach I could talk to. Because you can't always talk to your exec team because the decision can affect them too, right?

Ben Nye: Yeah, it's well said. Look, the thing is, like any firm, you know, there'll be partners that are excellent on any given issue, but maybe the next S curve is a different issue. Right. And so what we wanted to do was bring this together and have an engagement model that actually brought data driven assessments, data driven analysis, but but with direct functional action items each quarter that we work on at a strategic level, but with each of the portfolio companies and and to be candid, it's it's it's been very, very fun and well received. Yeah, I can see that.

Mirko Novakovic: Ben, this was really awesome talking to you. And I will follow venture guides and your way definitely. And see what you're building and which next big company is coming out of Venture guides. There will probably be a lot.

[00:35:21] Chapter 13: Closing Remarks

Ben Nye: How about we team up and we do one together?

Mirko Novakovic: Absolutely, absolutely.

Ben Nye: All right, Mirko, it's great to see you.

Mirko Novakovic: Thank you. Ben. Thanks for listening. I'm always sharing new insights and insider knowledge about observability on LinkedIn. You can follow me there for more. The podcast is produced by Dash0. We make observability easy for every developer.